What is the real point of a list archive?

[Todd Day <today @ di . com>]

> So you "think it's important" to make unauthorized copies of my copyrighted
> web pages without asking me first?  Well, I'm certainly glad you think
> it's important, but sorry, it's illegal.

> This
> "data" you so flippantly toss around is not yours -- it belongs to me,
> and the people on my lists.

I went to your website and poked through a couple of your lists.
I couldn't find any info about what was acceptable use of the
archives there.  Most notably, your copyright notice didn't lead
to a sheet stating just what was acceptable use of the documents
therein.

I noticed the data that "belongs to you and the people on your lists"
was open for anyone to access.  Is that your intention?  Am I stealing
if I click on those pages and the page appears on my screen and gets
stored in my netscape cache?  Am I stealing if I get a great idea from
your list that saves or makes me quite a bit of money?  You might be
copyright holder, but you have left your archives open for people to
copy without stating what is acceptable and what is not.  Copyrights
in the age of the Internet are not very well understood by many people,
so it is important that you clearly state what you want to allow people to
do with your data.  It will save you a lot of pain in the future.

I am not in any way trying to excuse findmail.com for their rude
behaviour.

> Feh.  I might subscribe, but I'm sure I'd spend all my time flaming
> rabid archivampires who are out to suck the blood of every list on
> the net in the name of "archiving for posterity and research".

I understand that you feel passionately about this topic.  However,
you are coming off pretty strong in your messages, especially when
compared to the rather reasonably *worded* and *sounding* messages
from findmail.com.  We should try to reach some understanding with
these people, not try to make them mad at us by flaming them.  Then
they will keep on doing what they have been doing.

~

Personally, I can understand where you are coming from.  You like me
have worked hard to build mailing lists that people can use to furthur
their understanding of some topic or common interest.  We've done it
with little or no funding for our work, and we still get a great feeling
every time we get a thank you from someone on our lists.  Then these
archival people come in and want to put your list into a database that
people can access, maybe for free, but most likely at least covered in
banner ads, with premium searches at a fee.

One of the things I've struggled with is making a decent index of all
of my archives.  I'm currently using wais, but an old and decrepit one
with crappy boolean tools, no article aging, etc.  I've also got a slow
link to the net.  I'm ready to cave into these big database people if
my list members can access the data in a form that I'm happy with.  I
just don't have the hardware or software or time to make something that
will work well.  If they put up banner ads, well, so what, the most
important thing to me is that my list members can access that data for
free, in a nice, quick, format on a fast machine.  After all, I built
the archives for the convenience of the list members.  Frankly, the
archivists would be doing me a big favor.  Only problem is, I've only
been contacted by a rather crappy archiver that can't do searches
based upon lists - all of the searches search their entire database!

~

I've really given up on feeling ripped-off by "big business" when it
comes to my site and digest.  I have over 300 subscribers from AOL,
and I'm certain that almost half of them got started on AOL simply
because they wanted to access my digest.  Many AOLers have told me
this.  netcom.com as well.  I never get a cut of their profits.  My
site and digest have sold many cars for Mitsubishi and Chrysler -
not once have I heard a peep from them, either.  Many of my readers
have written me and said they decided on their car purchase because
of the huge depth of info my digest provides, and the sense of
community we have (as silly as that sounds - it is just a car,
after all).  But I don't get dime-one from them either.  Car dealers
have written me and said they have sold cars after refering people
to my digest and site.  No money there, either.  The point
is, if you go out to not make a dime on what you do, you shouldn't
feel so bad when others benefit as a result - it *will* happen,
whether you hear about it or not.  It is a waste of time to fret
about it.  I've decided just to concentrate on my original goal -
connecting people with the same interests in cars so they can
exchange information and have fun with their hobby.

-todd-
-talon mgr
The Talon Digest
http://www.dsm.org

PS - No, I don't have an acceptable use policy on my site, either!
I should go work on one...

PPS - This past year, my list members have been quite generous and
have sent me *quite* a bit of beer money and some car related items,
all unsolicited.  It's not the money, but that they felt like they
*had* to send me something for my efforts, that felt really good
and gave me a good ego boost.  So it is true what they say - what
goes around, comes around...